BECKLEY— CNN really loves these boogie man stories. It appears that “evil” insurance companies value profits above human life. Apparently, if “evil” insurance companies kill everybody then they can have all the profits to themselves.
The Elders boil it down to health insurance companies putting profits ahead of human life.
“The insurance companies are choosing who will live and who will die,” Leslie Elder said.
—CNN.com
Yes, apparently insurance companies, which are “evil”, have now been granted the power of the gods to choose who lives and who dies. Actually more like when people die as I think most people will eventually die given a long enough time line, but I digress.
Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not hard hearted cancer sucks! My wife was recently diagnosed with a Thymoma and they are concerned she may now have Lymphoma. We’re going to see a specialist surgeon for the Thymoma on Thursday. She is having some of her lymph nodes removed and biopsied on Friday. So hopefully it’s nothing, but it’s not looking good so far. Financially, looking at costs estimates I, like the Elder’s, may be getting ready to have a hospital bill of $20,000 to $30,000. Our insurance costs around $500 a month although it’s paid by our employer’s I just know the number because of my finance position. So, this year is going to be a financial challenge but hey I’m not complaining. I’m thankful and you want to know why? Read on.
What the article by CNN fails to point out is the other side of the story. How much premiums did the Elder’s pay and how much benefit did they receive? The article states that they had $80,000 paid off by a family member and were working on another $21,000 themselves. If those two numbers represent the total of their co-pay and it was at 20% (per the article) then they received close to a half a million in medical services (not including other services throughout the years)!
Further the article states she is in her 60s so let’s say she’s been paying premiums for 30 years. And the premiums slowly increased over this time to $1,000 and the median number then was $500 a month in premiums. This is about $180,000 in premiums. That’s a pretty sweet deal $180k for $500k! Yet, it’s not enough for these people.
I know cancer is rough but to complain about the money? Sheesh! She’s alive! She’s received over $300,000 in benefits from her insurance carriers but it’s not enough. Some how she doesn’t realize if the insurance company hadn’t profited off of somebody else they couldn’t have paid her bill.
“I’ve said to my husband, if I start to get sick, just set me up with a nice pill cocktail on a beach, because nobody cares. That’s the message you hear every day from insurance companies.”
Nobody cares! What a nut! Only $300,000 dollar loss to the insurance company and it’s not enough! I was always taught to be thankful for what one has. Instead she’s suicidal because somebody else isn’t going to foot her bill. This “medicated, drama queen, picture perfect, numb belligerence, narcissistic, drama queen, craving fame and all its decadence.” All she want’s is something for free she thinks those richer than her should pony up for her care. If not she should just die! What a victim mentality! What a grossly one sided CNN story. Then she can be one of those victims of the Boogie Man – Mr. Insurance Policy.
It appears that these boogie man stories as false and one sided as they were are getting through to the numbskull’s in government though as it appears the health care bill has it’s needed support to move on to the next level.
TennesseePaul
Stephen VanNuys
Brooklyn Daniel
The Freedom Thinker
First and most important: my prayers and best wishes are extended to you and your wife and I do so hope that the news will be much better than expected.
The politics favored by the Left require demonization as a standard technique (not to say that all politicians are not tempted by this slimy maneuver).
It is easy to overlook your excellent point that so many people have been helped and saved by the insurance that they have invested in. Then again, so much of the media is wedded to emotional theater, rather than the inclusion of facts that might detract from the drama.
This is the kind of publicity that Obama depends upon to sway the voters to his contention that only a massive intrusion by his government can save us all from death, illness and destruction – and so much of the media is willing to aide and abet his plans for domination.
Yes, I guess portraying the good a corporation or industry does is to much to ask.
I found it funny how they place the power of life and death at the feet of the insurance industry! Pretty out their if you ask me. Made me laugh and then made me angry because they have millions of viewers and readers who probably take that at face value.
The thing that cracked me up the most about this new insurance campaign against the Baucus bill is, the insurance companies are complaining that the bill doesn’t require 100% coverage… that is to say, the studies show that this bill will only cover 94% of the country. The insurance companies are wanting the bill to make it manditory for every single person to buy their product…
I really need to hammer out some widgets and lobby the government. If I can get a law passed requiring everyone to buy my widgets I’ll be set.
Sorry to hear about your wife FT. I hope it all turns out well.
“The article states that they had $80,000 paid off by a family member and were working on another $21,000 themselves. If those two numbers represent the total of their co-pay and it was at 20% (per the article)”
The $80,000 was for the kidney cancer she got after she dropped the insurance.
The $21,000 was for the second bout of breast cancer earlier, after they had gone from a $250 deductible to a $5000 deductible in attempt to keep their insurance. Assuming that this policy still had the 20% co-insurance (which would kick in after the patient paid the first $5000), the contribution of the insurance company would be $64000, meaning the breast cancer treatment cost $85000 in all. Assuming that the cost didn’t change, her first round of breast cancer would have cost her $250+$16950, with the insurance company paying $67800. The total contribution by the insurance company for the two cancers it covered was $131800.
Fred, Thanks! I missed that it said early in the article that they were uninsured by the time that specific treatment took place. So, you are correct. At this rate they are probably getting close to breaking even with the insurance. However, the article seems to imply that there are more bills then these.
I doubt if all they owed was $21,000 they couldn’t work out a payment plan and avoid bankruptcy unless they were out of work. If they were out of work then that is a different story and I’m not sure how being out of work has anything to do the insurance company.
If there are more bills then the one $21,000 then the insurance company probably payed out more then the $131,800 you suggest although less then the $500,000. So either the insurance company is close to break-even with a small profit or small loss.
If the bills were incurred after 2005 when they went off their insurance then that’s different too. Because it’s not the insurance company to pay for care when you cancel your policy. Which is not what the article seems to be about. The article seems written like the insurance companies sticking them with all these bills.
Sorry for the data error but I think the point still stands this article is one side making the Elder’s out to be victims. When it is apparent they aren’t victim’s but suicidal cowards because she’d rather die then spend money on her health care. And in this case the insurance companies aren’t the bad guys and quite possibly even good guys.
“Now, don’t get me wrong. I’m not hard hearted cancer sucks!”
Well if you were saying that Cancer didn’t suck – I would recommend a new username, The Dick.
BTW – check out Afrocity’s blog. Hilarious picture of fat hippie with a flute on 1/20/2009 with Obama seal on stomach.
>I think most people will eventually die given a long enough time line
Again, most- but not ALL – people. Vampires, FreedomThinker. What kind of gem of a health insurance plan do those guys have that makes them live so long?
FreedomThinker – just finished the article, very sorry to hear about your wife. Keep us posted on that, she will be in our thoughts and prayers. Those can be scary times, but the Lord is faithful and I certainly pray he will give you and her peace and healing. Hopefully it won’t be as bad as you fear. Let us know how things are going and if there is anything we can do to help.
Final thought here, since the left likes anecdotal stories, I’m working on a client with UK operations. This is sad news, but the wife of one of the main accounting people at the UK facility has cancer and has struggled with it for the last several years. My understanding through people who have talked to them is that they are extremely bitter with their national health care system. The system brings his wife in for treatments, but he says the instant she shows for the first signs of cancer going into remission they take her off treatments and send her home to save money. The cancer never fully is treated. He thinks she wouldn’t have struggled with it for nearly as long if they had more healthcare choices but they have no alternatives to the public health system.
Just sounds like a total nightmare to me. I hate to hear this for this guy and his family.
I’m from the Netherlands, and I just can’t believe that you’re ok with paying $20000 to $30000 in medical bills… when you’ve got insurance! I agree it’s probably far less than the actual cost, but after a certain amount it’s just a number, if you know what I mean.
I read the article about the Elders with nothing but disbelieve! But then to read this comment… The fact that you guys think it’s normal to pay that much just blows my mind!
Now I understand why people go bankrupt in the US when they get sick. That never happens over here.
Marco,
They will probably have to crack my wife’s chest open, she’ll be in ICU for 3-5 days and in recovery for 3-5 more before coming home. This is just for the Thymoma. This is top surgeon at one of the best facilities in my state. $20,000 grand is a great deal for the reputation of our surgeon. I don’t know what world class surgeon’s charge in the Netherlands for major invasive surgery or if the Neatherlands has world class Thymoma surgeon’s. I personally don’t mind paying for the best in the world though which our surgeon is one of…
I’m sure we could go across the boarder to Mexico or fly to some other country and get a cheaper rate. However, I’d prefer to go with one of the best not cheapest. Especially when it comes to my wife’s life. That’s me. I’ll leave the skimping on medical services to those like the Elder’s.
As for the cost we haven’t paid that much into our insurance policy so our insurance is going to lose money on us this year big time! Why wouldn’t I be fine with it. Who else do you think should pay for this? Somebody richer then me? It’s fair because this is the reason for insurance to stop an even bigger loss.
Now I’m not saying that perhaps it couldn’t be lower but it’s not lower. Hospitals have to deal with Malpractice big time in this country (rightfully so) and they have all the poor government people on Medicare and Medicaid whom they loss money on. So I recognize some of the money I’m spending is a hidden tax to go pay for poor people.
So, I could complain about the $20,000 and I probably WILL complain about it at some time. But I won’t complain about paying it. I’ll complain about the reason it’s so high. GOVERNMENT interference and high malpractice costs (which I think is fair I don’t mind paying a little extra for a major surgery knowing if the doctors screw up I’m going to sue the crap out of them).
As for the specific amount I’m just guess. I go with my wife to meet with the surgeon tomorrow so at this time I have no idea of the cost of the surgery it might be even lower. But unlike other’s I know nothing is free. Even if the insurance/government covers 100% the cost it’s not free.
I’m not sure the insurance system in the Netherlands but somebody is paying those costs either the government is going in the hole, insurance companies are going in the hole, or somebody is stealing from somebody. Either way through going in the hole or stealing somebody is going bankrupt in the Netherlands. Because nothing is free.
I’m sorry to hear about your wife, I wish her and you all the best.
About the Dutch insurance: I pay about $150 a month on insurance. That covers basically everything. If I get sick and need (multiple) surger(y)(ies), everything is covered.
You’re saying that having the best surgeon justifies the enormous bill. And if he really is the best, you’re probably right.
I haven’t done any research, but I have been to a couple of hospitals here. I have also been to the US although luckily I did not have to go to a hospital while I was there. All I can say is that both our countries seem like two modern countries, both a part of the ‘rich western civilization’ so to say. Anyway, there is no reason for me to believe that when people go to the hospital here, they most likely won’t make it because our surgeons are not the best (maybe some of the are the best!). To me it looks like the level of medical care in the Netherlands is comparable to the medical care provided in the US.
You conclude with:
“I’m not sure the insurance system in the Netherlands but somebody is paying those costs either the government is going in the hole, insurance companies are going in the hole, or somebody is stealing from somebody.”
Aren’t you missing another possibility? Namely that you guys are just paying way too much? And let me tell you, the surgeons here get a pretty decent paycheck as well!
A lot of things are going bankrupt in the Netherlands! But that has other reasons…
My experience in Europe was that the Netherlands was overall a pretty conservative country (if you don’t count Amsterdam). I found it interesting in my travels over there that in Sweden one parent gets a full year off for a new child with that being paid (to my recollection). Why doesn’t that get abused and everyone have thirty kids there?
Difference in thought pattern I think.
Here in the US it would be abused to its fullest – I am convinced of that. And the parents would be going to the hospital to get pain pills to sell on the streets.
What are tax rates like in the Netherlands Marco? That is what Freedom Thinker is referring to or whether there are massive unfunded liabilities on the rolls of your healthcare system. Thanks for stopping by.
BMM: Interesting point on the time off after children. Supposedly, the native Europeans don’t abuse those priviledges. But that evidently doesn’t stop the immigrants from doing so.
My good friend over here from Belgium tells me there is a lot of resentment against “free-loading” Turkish immigrants that come over to Belgium, get quick jobs and then have lots of children and live off the system.
I know nothing about Turkish people or the politics over there, so these are not my opinions. I’m sure there are some very broad generalizations there.
But nonetheless, that gave me an interesting perspective on people’s perceptions over the there…
Nothing is free. The taxation would be part of the cost. That taxation is weaved throughout the entire economic system of the country. I have not studied the Netherlands in depth, but it is impossible to obtain a specialized skill of the nature in discussion for merely $150. That might be the price a citizen of the Netherlands sees, but that isn’t what the service costs.
One of the main reasons America appears expensive is because the costs are not so easily hidden to the consumer. Granted there are some hidden costs, but for the most part, you know how much the goods or services cost, and how much the government is taxing you for procuring them.
One way to lower the costs is to allow for a more competitive market. That is to say, allow insurance companies interstate marketability. Allow companies to develop and promote plans tailored to the desires of the consumers, and not mandated one-size-fits-all products. Another is to pass tort reform to reduce the costs accrued through frivolous law suits.
You are surprised by the cost of the medical bills because the costs of all of these mandates, laws, and scarcity of skills is not hidden as it apparently is in the Netherlands.
I’m not saying it’s not to much. It probably is to much.
Be thankful you didn’t have to go to a hospital. Our costs are associated with our emergency care!
American’s are demanding. My wife is an RN (registered nurse) in an emergency room. I’m a CFO for a health clinic. People want their drugs, they have a headache, whatever, they go to an emergency room.
Specialized care America is a the top. Primary care America sucks. This is partly from our choice. We demand services now. Why go to an emergency room which costs an arm and a leg when you can go to a PA or NP for a fraction of the cost. The problem is the government. Industry could come up with these solutions without the government.
Also another thing to keep in mind is the demographics of the US. We’ve go some pretty wild demographic mixtures here. Plus we’re an overweight society (McDonalds anybody). Our lifestyles makes it difficult plus immigration. Alot of immigrations, California is run amuck with immigration and look at their budget issues.
Yes, cost control is important but it should come from the individual NOT the government. Wage and price controls set by a government is a dangerous path. Especially for something as personal as health care. I know it’s the “in” thing now to think government can fix all our problems but that’s not the history of America and not what made us a great nation.
Placing costs to the side and focusing on ethical, political, and philosophical side of things I don’t think the ends justify the means. Price control forced by the government = more government power. Power in the hands of the few is and has always been a recipe for slavery.
@BaldManMoody You’re right, both the father and mother get a year paid leave. (although I thought it was in Norway) They believe that having both the father and mother around during the first year is crucial for the development of the child.
@TennesseePaul I understand that the $150 I pay is nothing compared to the actual costs. But you have to remember that every person in the Netherlands (appr. 16.5 million individuals) is required by law to have health insurance ( although parents pay less for the kids, I think). There is a basic insurance that every insurance company has to provide. Next you can opt to have more things insured like different kinds of (alternative) treatments, or more physical therapy sessions should you need it, stuff like that. So that means you can ‘shop around’ and see what insurance company fits your needs the best.
I know this is quite a hot topic in the US at the moment, but I don’t know enough about the politics and social situation in the US to really discuss it. All I can say is: this is working great for us, no one has to worry about not being able to pay his medical bill when he / she gets sick.
16.5 million is considerably less than 305 million plus undocumented. I don’t know that much about the Netherlands, but statistically speaking comparing across such vastly different sized systems is a flawed practice. The “chinks in the armor” would begin to appear on the larger system.
A quick research of the Netherlands shows that it is a laissez-faire capitalist economy, something of which I’m not entirely opposed. Unfortunately here in America (Los Estados Unidos), the current party in control is pressing hard to end such an economic system, despite the double think that is espoused from the top. I’m not sold on the idea that the same government that has brought the world the Vietnam War, War in Iraq, the DMV, Amtrack, habitually tanking public schools, as well as all other rmassively unfunded liabilities is capable of managing my health more efficiently than me.
Concur here. Ensuring 300+ million people via the government would be onerous and overbearing to say the least.
The one thing being left out of this discussion is that we have some of the lowest tax rates in the industrialized world. A huge chunk (40% or so) of our population doesn’t even pay federal income taxes, after considering deductions, credits, (and handouts!). If we go to ensuring everyone, we won’t have to worry about health costs bankrupting a handful of people every year. We’ll have to worry about government taxes bankrupting us all…
Marco, Thanks for stoping by the American Missive loves different views. Especially international ones they are always unique and helpful in challenging our assumptions.
Yep, thanks Marco. Enjoyed having you here.
I do want to say one more thing, though, I should have said when I posted before. The truth is we on the Missive and most Americans with us don’t want to pay these high prices for medical care, either. Conservatives across America (yes, even “evil” Republicans that the world evidently does not understand) want health care reform, lower costs, and as close to universal coverage as is possible.
The rallies and riots and frustration you see in many cases is b/c conservatives believe their views on how to achieve these things are not being given proper consideration. In fact, they are being dismissed while liberal views are being shoved down our throats.
Some of the major reasons health care is so costly in this country are:
1. Health insurance is linked to employment legally, so if you are unemployed it is very hard to get for cheap. Conservatives would like to remove this linkage.
2. There is a trend in which most Americans use their health insurance for everyday type doctor visits and are not aware of the true cost of the services they are getting (b/c they don’t pay for much of them directly out of pocket). Providers can charge higher prices b/c insurance companies will pay them. This also puts a pinch on the uninsured. Conservatives are for higher deductible plans and health savings accounts. Higher deductible plans would have much lower premiums. Also, health savings accounts would encourage people to save for health costs but also to pay the majority of their basic care needs out of their own pockets- which will encourage price shopping and bargain seeking on the routine stuff, driving down costs.
3. America is highly litigious, which makes us unique in the world, I’ve learned. You can get sued for just about anything. Doctors and providers have enormous premiums for malpractice insurance. There are a lot of anecdotal stories out there about doctors who quit the profession b/c they could no longer afford the malpractice insurance. Given that we have an increasing shortage of general practicioners here in America, that is no good. So, conservatives want tort reform, which would put reasonable caps on the amount of malpractice awards plaintiffs can get if they sue their provider. This would reduce the amount of malpractice insurance and decrease incentives that doctors currently have to do additional, often unnecessary procedures simply to cover off their risks of being sued.
4. Health care insurance can’t be bought and sold across state lines, creating mini-monopolies in various regions of the country where individual insurers are the only game in town. Conservatives are in favor of removing those “regulations” and opening up a free market.
Now, Marco. Look at that list I gave you. Can you estimate for me how much additional taxes, government bureaucracy, government rationing, etc. that list of 4 things would lead to?
Not very much at all.
Certainly not the $900 billion Barack Obama wants his health care plan to cost.
That’s why we’re angry at this debate. Our voices are being ignored.
Stephen to add to your #1 point above it is linked to employment so if your a small business or self-employeed it’s cost prohibitive too.
FYI, Our specialist we went to yesterday doesn’t think my wife will need surgery. It is most likely benign he wants her back in 3 months to run another scan and then annual CT scans after that. But no cracking the chest open any time soon. As for the lymphoma issue hopefully the biopsy comes back negative she is getting that done today.